Subjective Tone: A Conversation with ‘The Sympathizer’ Co-Showrunner Don McKellar

Based on Viet Thanh Nguyen’s Pulitzer Prize-winning novel of the same name, THE SYMPATHIZER is an espionage thriller and cross-culture satire about the struggles of a half-French, half-Vietnamese communist spy during the final days of the Vietnam War and his resulting exile in the United States.

It’s far and in between that I watch a pilot that visually captivates me, while also keeping me engaged with story and character, scene to scene, beat by beat. And boy howdy, let me tell you, you get that and some in The Sympathizer, a new mini-series adapted from Viet Thanh Nguyen’s novel of the same name, coming to HBO Max on April 14^th.

The show leaves you with an indelible impression with its visceral visual language and mirage of characters. And I’m ready to die on this hill…this is Robert Downey Jr.’s best acting and role(s) since 2008 in Tropic Thunder.

Co-showrunner and writer Don McKellar recently spoke with Script about the adaptation process, his collaboration with auteur Park Chan-wook, diving into theme and character vulnerability, and touches on the key skills to not only be an effective leader as a showrunner, but the importance of collaboration with all departments. 

This interview has been edited for content and clarity.

Sadie Dean: How did this book or this project initially come across your desk and you wanting to dive in and adapt this?

Don McKellar: I’d heard about the book, but I hadn't read it until it was brought to me by Niv Fichman, one of our producers. And I think he brought it to me, because Viet [Thanh Nguyen] had said that the book was partially inspired by Park Chon-wook films, and that was his dream director. 

And I'd worked with Chon-wook, we'd written a screenplay together many years ago, a feature film that was never made, but still may be made. And we really enjoyed working together. We really felt we were simpatico in terms of taste and we could finish each other's sentences, even though we didn't speak the same language. So, there was comfort in that. 

And then he [Chon-wook] felt, I think, he proposed the co-showrunner model, because he knew how much work it was. [laughs] I think that's really the bottom line. He just wanted someone to help shoulder the way. And he was smart. He was right about that. And so we saw ourselves as this showrunner with two faces, like the protagonist, and it worked.

Sadie: It works. It's seamless. You would you would never know that there's two minds behind this. I’d love to talk about the tonal consistency of this visually, coupled with the dialogue and action, and especially your collaboration with Chon-wook. What particurlaly stands out, outside of the acting and what’s on the page, but how the camera moves, the editing within the camera and how it’s very stylized.

Don: I'm really glad you say that. That was sort of was on my plate, I guess, to keep the consistency, because Chon-wook directed the first three, although, he had a huge amount of input in the later ones too, even in the direction. We wanted the complexity of the book, the voice is very distinctive - we wanted that sort of multiple narrative devices almost, in a dizzying way. Is that a voiceover? Now, it's an interrogation. Now it's his fantasy. So, it's consistency is also pretty diverse. Do you know what I mean? It's a solid straight line tone.

And episode four, for instance, we saw as this sort of wild thing that took us outside the safety zone into a whole other world. So, I guess what I'm saying is we wanted both variety and consistency at the same time. But what we did want to carry throughout is sort of the subjective tone, and the sort of, it sounds self-promoting, but sort of intelligence of the book, the sort of wit of the book, the way the style is integrated into the theme of the book, which is sort of about storytelling and how we tell history and how we perceive it, and how it has another flip side. We always wanted to keep flipping sides, which is key to the spy genre, but also key to understanding the sort of message of the book.

Sadie: There's three different lines quipped in the show that caught my attention. And two of them are, and I think words that writers should live by, which are “feeling is believing” and “this medium is emotive” which you definitely deliver on this show. 

The other line that I thought as just a viewer that hit the thematic element was in episode three, said by Dumpling, “A wandering ghost living between two worlds.” Can you talk about tapping into that theme, using that as your north star from the pilot episode to the last episode?

Don: That ghost line is a really key line to us. Because first of all, from the Vietnamese writers in the room, they talked a lot about the ghosts. And they brought in lots of books about Vietnamese folk literature, and things like that. And it was fascinating, it's their perception of ghosts, and there's a million Vietnamese ghost stories. They're not like horror stories. They're really about the unresolved past, which is what this is about, right? And the ghosts are in the book.

But we just saw the opportunity of really letting it expand to the central theme, which is about how this community has been fractured and unresolved, and they are wandering ghosts. It's particularly about the Vietnamese diaspora who were forced unjustly out of the homeland in a way. I feel that grasping onto that it's always sort of dangerous grasping onto a literary type theme like that. But we felt we could let it live, and naturally, breathe without sort of hammering it home, just keeping those ghosts alive, and letting it expand, letting the viewers recognize that once you start seeing the unjustly dispossessed ghosts in your presence, once you see that they're part of you, they're still alive, then they're everywhere.

Sadie: The character work on this show seems like it was a fun sandbox to play in. I'm curious, knowing that you started as a playwright, as a director and all that, I wonder how much of that helped feed into that character work? And especially, the characters, the many faces and figures that Robert Downey Jr. plays, just that duality – did that background feed into honing writing dialogue, to the character work and establishing the motives behind it all?

Don: I mean, you're absolutely spot on with all that comment, because I feel like…one of the things I love about Chon-wook's work is that there's something heightened, and sometimes I think of it as theatrical, although it isn't theatrical, because it's incredibly cinematic. But I think in film, people resist it, resist theatrical effects nowadays, unless it's a pure fantasy. And I love that stuff. 

And one of the things I loved about this show was that it gave us liberty to be playful and to be Baroque at times, and because it's all told from some subjective character who's being tortured and imagining this crazy stuff in his cell. And that's his sort of downfall in a way that he can't, as the character says in episode seven, his smartassness is actually his last defense, his last refuge of humanity.

So, in a way, the show is sort of about justifying invention and storytelling. In one way it's saying the story has been told all wrong, in the way you've heard it, the story of the Vietnamese War, the story of these people's lives. There's another perspective, but it's also saying there are so many voices. And let's not be afraid to let them compete and let them fight it out.

Sadie: In the writers’ room when breaking the story and laying this world out, obviously you took creative liberties when adapting the book, but was there anything that surprised you in terms of where you and the writers were taking a storyline or character?

Don: It's hard to say…a lot of things, you know, surprised me in the room, of course. But I think that the way The Captain evolved was maybe different than I had read in the book. And it wasn't that we forced it. But I felt he had more vulnerability than I necessarily read in the book. His nerves were more exposed. I think we naturally leaned into his emotional side.

In the book, he's a bit I guess, he read reads a little more like a cool '70s spy, which there is all that, that's certainly the way he perceives himself. But I think when you're in someone's head so much, you feel, even though we sometimes have him say, kind of cruel, communist dogma, there was still something searching about him and something vulnerable that we all responded to. 

So, I think it was interesting the way that sort of naturally flowed out. Oddly enough, I feel it's like the character elements and sort of the complexity of the characters, and maybe that was all there in the book. I'm sure it was, that they all had more complexity. Of course, you look for that in a room, but it was there in the book.

Sadie: What inspired you to become a storyteller and getting to this point in your writing career?

Don: I grew up loving the movies. But I grew up in Toronto, Canada, I didn't think of a career in the movies, I didn't even think it was possible. It was not something people really did. [laughs] Especially at the time, there was Cronenberg. There wasn't a lot else. But there was a lot of theater. My parents fortunately took me to a lot of theater, which really excited me. It's a big theater going town and theater training town. So that seemed like an option. So, I started doing theater from an early age. I created a children's theatre company [Child’s Play Theatre] in high school to pay my way through university and slowly started doing more of that.

And when I did theater, it was very alternative experimental theater. It was very collaborative. And allowed me to act, write, direct - have all those disciplines confused in my mind. See the crossover. And I think that that all proved really excellent training when the movie opportunities did pop up, based on my theater work. I thought, ‘OK, this is awesome. I can translate what I've been learning into the movies.’ I wasn't intimidated by it. It seemed like a fun playground. 

And I was very fortunate in a way that my career developed in a fairly natural way - the way it should - one thing led to the next, they seemed bigger. I always grabbed at a job that put me in unfamiliar places, writing stuff I didn't think I would ever write. [laughs] But I sort of consciously did it because I thought it'd be fun because I know I respond to that kind of stimulation. And yeah, and here I am years later.

Sadie: I never thought of it this way. But when you think of a showrunner, you immediately think, or at least I do, you should have a producing background and obviously be a writer to run the show, but I feel like for you, you kind of have that upper hand in that you've also directed, and you're an actor. I wonder how that comes into play just from hiring your key creative departments, but also down to casting and how that also influences the show as well.

Don: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, of course, it's easy for me to say, but I think all those sorts of different skills are obviously really valuable for a showrunner, which requires a very diplomatic side and leadership skills. But it also requires at the very least empathy for actors and directors and creative people and able to get into their heads and understand and help them do their best.

On the set, I found myself a lot talking with the actors. And it was really fun, because we had a lot of pretty inexperienced actors, we had really experienced actors too, of course, Vietnamese ones, too, but also a lot of pretty fresh people. And it's funny, I often thought, ‘Oh, this is like back in the start in theatre,’ talking to these actors about how to get in character, where they are in the script, what they've just come from, and I thought, ‘wow, it's like back in acting school’ which was really exciting for me, and not necessarily what you think a showrunner is gonna be doing. [laughs] But you also have to do what you need to do when you showrun. So, you fill any gap.

Sadie: That must be so inspiring in the moment because of those conversations.

Don: It definitely made me feel that. It definitely brought me back right to that. A lot of the cast were talking about how it was closing circles in their life and Toan [Le], for instance, who plays The General, he came over as a kid to Fort Chafee where we recreated that scene, and so many of them had stories. And this show gave closure, not even closure necessarily, because it kept spinning, but he did offer these sort of life arc answers to a lot of people and I felt that way myself, partially just because I was swept along with it. And it was exhilarating for people to find that themselves. And that sort of forced me back too.

Sadie: I love that stuff. You get everyone from every stage in their career, every walks of life. Having those moments of both inspiration and learning…

Don: Yes, of course. And you have to embrace that, because that's rare to be provided that.

Sadie: Any advice you may have in terms of just the adaptation process that maybe helped carry you through on this show, or that you've just learned along the way?

Don: Honestly, what I learned is, first of all, not to be afraid of the author. [laughs] I was at first scared of how he would respond. I welcomed his input right from the beginning. But…and he was scared too, because he'd heard horror stories of his author friends whose books had been massacred, and they'd been excluded from the process. And he's a great guy, and that helps, and he's an incredible resource. But it did make me feel we had a very healthy relationship with the author, which I was very, very thankful for. [laughs] And he really likes this series. And he's so smart and articulate that he's an incredible salesman now. But I think that that's one thing I'm proud of the way I regularly checked in with him, regularly gave him drafts even though I was scared every time [laughs], I gave him a cut to the show. Maintaining that was really important.

I feel like generally, and maybe this is always the lesson for showrunners that the value of those collaborations was driven home to me at every level so many times. Someone like Park Chan-wook, who you would expect to be very stubborn and closed to ideas just because he's such an auteur and his films are so meticulous, he is actually very open to ideas. And I think that the key to our relationship was that I was not afraid to talk to him, I know that seems obvious, but it's of course what he appreciated, right? And I feel like you have to enjoy those collaborations. If you’re a showrunner and if you don't, then I really you cannot showrun and not do that.

Sadie: Right. It's a collaborative team sport.

Don: Yeah, but it's also the fun of it. 

The Sympathizer premieres April 14, 2024 on Max.