How the Meta Element of Fear Was the Thorough Line for ‘Book Club: The Next Chapter’ Screenwriters Bill Holderman and Erin Simms

The highly anticipated sequel follows our four best friends as they take their book club to Italy for the fun girls trip they never had. When things go off the rails and secrets are revealed, their relaxing vacation turns into a once-in-a-lifetime cross-country adventure.

Screenwriting partners Bill Holderman and Erin Simms somehow managed to write the comedy film we all didn't know we needed right now, with their sequel Book Club: The Next Chapter. It's a light-hearted comedy, with four legends at the forefront, taking Italy by storm - it's a warranted 107-minute getaway from reality. 

Bill and Erin spoke with Script about revisiting these four characters and the upside to writing to the actresses' voices, writing comedy, maintaining the meta element of fear as a thematic anchor, and so much more!

This interview has been edited for content and clarity.

Sadie Dean: What was the inspiration behind writing the sequel and revisiting these four characters?

Bill Holderman: Well, the inspiration was a little bit just their relationship and the friendship that was formed between the group and truthfully their enthusiasm and excitement and desire to make the sequel themselves. I think that was a huge, huge driver for us, and got us really excited. The idea came even before the first movie came out, before we knew there would be a sequel, they were talking about it.

I keep telling the story, but it's a good one, and it's true. They were on a flight, Erin, Jane, Candice, and Mary, were all on a flight to CinemaCon, in 2018, before the movie came out, and on that flight, they decided, ‘We're going to make a sequel. It's going to be in Italy. And at some point, during the movie, we should all try to run but we can't run. So, we just walk.’ And so that was the foundational elements that we had.

Erin Simms: We got off the plane and said, 'So FYI, the movie hasn't come out yet, but we're making a sequel.'

Bill: And these are the things. And so then, when we had the opportunity to actually think about it more really, those things felt like they were foundational. And then it was how do we make this? We do not want to do something that's just a diluted derivative version of the first movie. If we're gonna do this, how do we make it step up, both in terms of the ambition, but also for the characters and for the world? And we just started brainstorming like you do.

And obviously, it's a book club, so the book became a really important element. And when The Alchemist, which seems like a strange choice for a group that read Fifty Shades [laughs] in the one before, but we really loved knowing that they're a sophisticated group of women that read other types of books. And the themes of that book resonated so strongly with us, as people, but also in terms of what it could mean for this movie, and then we just never looked back.

Erin: And of course, driven by the absolute fear of, ‘Please, I don't want to make a sequel that disappoints people.’ The fear of that was so huge for me, I think for us, that we really pushed ourselves to write a script that at the end of the day, we could say, ‘We love this. I don't know what's gonna happen, but we love this. We're proud of it, we worked our asses off.’ But we needed that for ourselves.

Sadie: In terms of that, that thematic anchor, there is this thread of ‘do not live in fear.’ How did you carry that element through the script and apply it to their character development?

Erin: Well, I think fear either stops you or it motivates you. For myself, I find it motivating. If I'm afraid of something I got to think about it. I got to figure out why. And I think that it's kind of the whole message of the movie, that as you get older, you've made this choice, maybe this didn't work out, maybe that didn't work. And suddenly you have all these stories in your head of like, ‘Well, it's too late, x and y happened, so I can no longer go down the road that I really wanted to.’ And it's all these little voices in our head, that are really just fear. Fear of people judging us, fear of I don't know what's going to happen next and that's too scary for me. 

And so, I think the big message of the movie is like, that's where the magic happens. If you can follow your fear in a way if you could step through it, live with it, bring it with you. So, I think all the characters are wrestling with things. You have to thread that through the entire script, and each person's arc, and the bigger arc of the message of the movie. It's all fear, isn't it?

Sadie: Yeah, and the vulnerability behind it.

Bill: I think there's something very meta for us in the making of this movie and that theme, and same with our cast, it's like, we're coming off of something very scary in the pandemic, we're still dealing with surges, we made this in the middle of all of the production protocols and all the potential dangers. And then the ambition of trying to make a sequel in a foreign country during that, but also that did, hopefully, expand these characters' worlds. 

There's fear in all of those things. And it was a great motivator, but I think we were all dealing with it. I think the women were too. It's like, ‘Can we go pull this off in a foreign country? Can we go elevate this the way that we believe we can, given all of the circumstances that we're dealing with?’ And I think that meta element was really part of what made it not only the experience special, but I think translates to something that feels pretty authentic in the movie.

Erin: Yeah, I think that's the thing - we were feeling it in production. And we're like, ‘Something special is happening here,’ because they actually are these characters that we've written. They live by these rules. They continue to be interested in the world around them. They continue to take chances. They work hard. They pulled all-nighters shooting a movie. I mean, just that night really sticks out to me. I'm like, ‘Here they are in the middle of nowhere. It's freezing. It's four in the morning. Who does this?!’ Like, they do. [laughs] They are incredible people, and it was really inspiring.

Sadie: To be in that kind of atmosphere with those four legends, and watching them do what they do and I'm sure make it seem really easy.

Erin: Yeah, they're made of pretty tough stuff.

Bill: They're truly superheroes.

Erin: It makes you question a lot of things about yourself. I'm like, ‘I got to get my shit together! I gotta stop complaining about dumb things. It's not that hot. You're fine.’ [laughs]

Sadie: [laughs] Bill, in terms of helming this sequel, as well as the first, was there anything that you learned from that experience that you carried with you on to this chapter?

Bill: The first movie taught me so much about the cast, but also just the confidence to be able to manage something that was that much more ambitious. I think the big learning curve on the first movie was learning how to deal with actors that all have very specific sort of styles and all at the same time. So, that was something that was really, really great on the first movie. 

I think for this one, there was a bunch of production elements that we were adding to the mix in terms of the logistics of how to pull things off, a bunch of things that we didn't know how to pull off when we got there and we had to figure out along the way. And I think you just gain a certain confidence as you go through the experiences. And luckily for me, I was surrounded by people that I completely trust; I have Erin, who has the greatest instincts on story of anyone I've ever met. And I think those elements make it a pretty pleasant experience.

And also, it's interesting early on in the making of this movie, we were out to dinner one night, and I told Erin and I think it was the first week, I said I was pre-nostalgic for the experience. And I think one of the things that I really tried on this movie, because you can get wrapped up in all of the production challenges and all of the sort of the questions and all of the things and you can forget, also that you're living your life, and part of this is you have to take the experience in yourself. 

And I think I really, I don't know if it's the pandemic or if it's just because it's the same cast, and we got to do it again, and we're in this magical place, but I really did try to appreciate what we were doing, who we were with, the opportunity and the privilege that came with that, looking around when you're shooting either in the Grand Canal of Venice, or the Spanish Steps in Rome, it's pretty remarkable. I really tried on a daily basis to just take pause and be like, ‘This is a magical experience. And let's enjoy it and appreciate it.’ And I really did.

I have to say I really it was a lot of fun. And the women were amazing. And it makes the relationship that much stronger when everyone's in it for the right reasons wanting to make the same movie and a great movie, and all really enjoying it. And maybe finishing the day with an Aperol Spritz.

Erin: One thing I could feel permeating through every person, cast and crew, was like no one was taking this for granted. No one could really believe they were there. I remember we're down near the Spanish Steps, and I walked around and I bumped into Jane's hair and makeup, and this one and that one, and we're sitting having a drink, like, ‘Can you believe this?!’ [laughs]

And by the way, part of the reason that you were pre-nostalgic is because we were eating this delicious chicken with melted cheese all over it. And that was also [laughs] just like the best day and then the best food led to this realization.

Bill: It did help.

Sadie: It's all about the food. But it's also about being in the moment. Erin, how much does your acting background come into play when writing dialogue? And especially very distinct voices for each character, without making them feel like they're caricatures or that their relationships feel false?

Erin: Yeah, I think it's actually a huge thing. When I first started working with Bill, it was just in development, I didn't even really put two and two together, that my acting past had anything to do with reading scripts or developing scripts. And then eventually it's like it's the rhythms, right? As an actor to be able to deliver the line in a natural way, there's a musicality to performing dialogue. And so, then when in reading, you've got to feel that it's got flow. And I think for us, rhythm is a giant part of it. It's like, yeah, you could say the line this way, and if you screw up those two words, there is no joke. It’s the rhythm of the writing. For comedy to land or for anything to land. And so, I do think acting is extremely helpful.

And also…Bill is such a good director, and he understands each one of them individually and how he needs to communicate with them. And then on occasion, I'll be like, ‘You know, as an actor, if you explain it this way…’ because when you're an actor, you're thinking about things slightly differently. And so, I very rarely am helpful in this department, but on occasion, I'm like, ‘Oh, because of my acting background, I know that they're thinking about something different.’ And so yeah, it's helped on occasion. [laughs]

Sadie: Makes sense. There's so many great zingers, especially from Candice, how much of that was written into the script versus giving them that complete creative freedom?

Erin: It's all written! [laughs] Candice has so many zingers in real life, by the way. She walks by you and every time she says something hysterical. No joke.

Bill: The blessing of these movies, it's on the page, but because we have the experience with the actors, and we certainly did on this one, we had the foundation of the first movie, tailoring the writing to their specific voices and using elements from who they are in the world, their iconography, and the whole sort of all of the characters that they've played, it's like, you get to take advantage of all of those things. It makes the writing process that much easier.

Erin and I talk about it, it's such a compliment when people feel like, ‘Oh, that must have been ad-libbed,’ it's so great that if the writing feels that fresh, because oftentimes the ad-libs are the freshest part of any movie. And in this instance, and I'm not trying to just take credit, [laughs] but it's all scripted.

Erin: Also, there's so much dialogue, and it's four people talking and doing a scene, you actually can't improv that easily. Because if suddenly Candice says something different, it's like everyone's coming prepared, because this is a quartet. This is a dance happening here. It's not that helpful to go off on a tangent necessarily, because everyone's coming, ready to play.

Bill: That said, there are some moments in the movie where you do, it's really, as the director, it's fun to be able to free those reins and let people have that freedom. And we try to do that as often as possible. And certainly, there's scenes and sequences where you give very little direction, and you say, ‘OK, this is you guys, we're just gonna shoot this for the next 20 minutes, whatever you want to do,’ but we're at a dance party. Let's see what happens. And that's part of the fun too.

Erin: The improv for these kinds of actors that are so brilliant at comedy, it's just how they deliver the line. You can write a line, you cannot imagine how it's going to come out of these women's mouths specifically, like the way Diane Keaton delivers the line. The way Candice delivers a line. That is not something we can write for them. So, I think that's why people feel that sure it was on the page, but it's just on the page until they do their thing.

Bill: The words are on the page. The performance is not. A lot of credit obviously to the actors.

Erin: They can't do it without us, and we can't do it without them.

Sadie: That's right! There's a really fun element that you guys have that you're playing in here which is fate versus coincidence. And as a writer, how much do you lean into one or the other without it being too much of a plot device?

Bill: There's a rule someone smarter than us said at some point that in any film you're only allowed one plot coincidence. And so, we try to stick to that. But I think because of the theme of this movie, there's so much talk of fate versus sort of a personal agency or our own control over our lives. 

In the thinking about it in the script, their action, we really did try to drill down and understand why they would do the things that they're doing. So it doesn't just feel like they're doing anything that's plot specific. It's rooted in some character element somewhere, whether it's on some random page of character breakdown to never to be seen or if it's traceable within the film. But we worked very hard at making those character actions and behaviors truthful and authentic to who they really are.

Erin: And I do think in life, we get a lot of signs, but what are signs? Signs are; what are you paying attention to? What do you think? What's your reaction when this sign happens? It tells you a lot about where you're at as a person. I just think that that's really interesting. Does it make you walk through the door? Does it make turn back around? And I think we're all provided signs all the time, not in like a crazy, mystical way. It's like opportunities are constantly presenting themselves to us. And which door do we go through?

Sadie: Right! For those that are comedy writing partners, married or not married in this case, what should they expect, embrace or leave at the door?

Bill: I think particularly on the comedy side, you have to come to it very open. You have to put yourself in the right state of mind, because comedy is really hard. And it is much harder if you're not in a joyful state. So, I think that's important.

I also think you have to find, if you're writing with someone else, you have to find people that at a very deep level you trust and respect. We're incredibly lucky because we have that. And I think it makes those hard times where you're trying to break down story and going on our crazy long like story walks --

Erin: Our walk and talks. Walk and talks are very important. I would give that advice, walk and talk as much as you can.

Bill: Yeah, get outside. But the truth is you have to be open. There is no such thing as bad ideas. And sometimes ideas that aren't necessarily the right one lead to the right one.

Erin: That happens to us a lot. I mean, where it's a terrible idea that we just like talk it to death. And then eventually, three hours later, somebody has a thought. It's like you're putting money in the idea piggy bank, just by going off on tangents. But I think with writing partners, the reality is you have to be ready for times where it's like, it literally feels like torture, your relationship will be challenged at the highest level, you're spending amounts of time together that nobody can understand. And I think the thing that's great between Bill and I, maybe because we met working together, so we've always worked together, that kind of feels like the baseline - we both have an interest in our work that just supersedes all the other crap.

But you're gonna go through times where you feel like you don't even know each other. And you have to sit in those and you have to get through them. And then when you get to the other side, it's like, you've survived something. It's just you sitting at a computer together, but you keep surviving things together. And it just makes the work better in the end.

Bill: The other thing is, you hear it all the time, and it's gonna sound so basic, but I'm gonna say it - the best comedy comes from character - work the characters. And another thing I want to say to anyone who's writing comedy, thank God you're writing comedy because the world is so dark so often, and we need to laugh. It is the great collective emotion and it's so fun to be in a big full house and have people laughing --

Erin: Every time people laugh in our movie, we look at each other, there's no better feeling. [laughs]

Bill: We need comedies, we need comedic movies. I know they're not always in vogue and I know we battle on a lot of levels as writers who write comedies, but it's coming back. It's worth it. Please keep going. It's so good [laughs] because we all need it, and we love them.

Erin: Honestly, there's nothing better than great comedy. We were working on something and he had rewritten a piece and he wrote a whole hysterical line and I burst out laughing. And I was like, ‘This is why we do it.’

Bill: When we're done with this, I can't wait to find out what she's talking about. [laughs]

Sadie: [laughs] Who are your inspirations or influences in the comedy world?

Bill: The greatest romantic comedy, probably for us is When Harry Met Sally. So obviously that's a huge, a huge influence. And we're big fans. There's so many great comedy writers out there. I don't want to single people out. But I will say, early on in my career, I was a big fan of TV comedies. And going back to even like, those great classic sitcoms, Cheers and Family Ties, these shows that were so rich, and you can see the vestiges of that, and threads of that from the people that were mentored by those people to today. I mean, I just read an article about Bill Lawrence and his relationship with Gary David Goldberg. And it's like, these are some of the greatest creative minds and that mentorship, and now we have Bill Lawrence mentoring a whole next generation and it's so inspiring.

And the same thing is true on the film side, I think there's always been a really strong history of comedy. I think, within the industry sometimes it's not celebrated at the same level as drama and I understand --

Erin: I don't understand - you know how hard comedy is to write.

Sadie: Oh, yeah.

Bill: The thing that makes it so hard is part of it is you have to make it look so easy. And I think that's the hardest part.

Erin: That's what fools people. You look at Bridesmaids, you look at Something's Gotta Give. you look at When Harry Met Sally, we know that it's a marvel. It's like I'm looking at the Eiffel Tower. How the hell did you write that script? We're just in awe. There's just certain movies where it's like we know how hard that probably was and then you made it and everyone performed it. People don't realize the level of talent that is involved in that script. The average viewer feels comedy is easy, but we disagree.

Book Club: The Next Chapter hits Theaters May 12, 2023.