Just Make It with What You Have: A Conversation with ‘Foil’ Indie Filmmakers Zach Green and Devin O’Rourke

An unusual piece of foil with potential alien origin causes a rift between two former best friends camping in the California desert.

Nothing warms my heart more than watching a truly independent film, made with the hubris to keep the ball rolling, but the creative openness for whatever may happen happens and thoughtfully make it work. And that's exactly what filmmakers and collaborators Zach Green (director/co-writer/actor) and Devin O'Rourke (co-writer/editor/actor) brought to the feature debut Foil. 

It's a simple story idea, a vast landscape, and quirky characters - perfect fodder for an independent film, but the execution is what is key. And these scrappy filmmakers made it work, above and beyond (in every literal sense and all puns intended). 

Filmmakers Zach Green and Devin O'Rourke spoke with Script ahead of their Dances with Films world premiere, in part of the Midnight Series, screening Friday, June 30, 2023 at 11:45pm PST, about story ideation, their writing collaboration during the pandemic, how their improv backgrounds informed their acting performances and delivery on set, trusting the process, and so much more. 

This interview has been edited for content and clarity.

Sadie: Where did this story idea come from?

Zach Green: Well, I'd say a lot of this was centered around just me and Devin's collaborative process. We did a short together just before the pandemic, that was much simpler; one day shoot, one location - actually shot it literally here where I'm currently sitting in this booth [laughs] in my kitchen. And had such a good time doing that. Once there was the huge pause of the pandemic, we had a bunch of time on our hands that sort of just kept inflating this idea of like, ‘What if we went bigger next time?’ But as far as the idea, I'll pass that to Devin, because Devin is the one that came to me with the original kernel of a logline about it.

Devin O’Rourke: Yeah, so Zach and I had made the short at that table that he's currently sitting at, and we were doing acting workshops together. And honestly, we hadn't been friends for very long, we knew each other, but we really hadn't spent time together until the weeks leading up to the short and then we just kind of realized we were in the same headspace in terms of wanting to make something bigger.

I had the original idea of two guys in the desert finding a weird piece of foil and arguing about it, and an Airstream trailer. And that's all I had. And my version was basically really more like a play - very small and contained. I was thinking it would almost play out in real-time. And then I brought it to Zach just those basic elements and he seemed excited about it. And that was the beginning of the Foil journey. And we just continued to talk about it and eventually started writing.

Sadie: Was it originally intended to be a short or was this the original intention for a feature?

Zach: I think that we didn't go into it fully expecting it to get as big as it got. Again, I feel like the huge pause of the pandemic and us just left to our own devices for many months allowed us to keep sort of getting loftier and loftier with how big we thought it could get. And allowed us to take a whole lot of time to write it. Going into. If you watch our previous short…it's scrappy, it's bare bones, it doesn't have any sort of bigger genre production to it.

Devin: We realized two things. We like dialogue, and we like sci-fi UFO stuff. And so, we knew we had that common ground. It was kind of like, how can we bring that sensibility to a sci-fi genre? And I think we both did want to make a feature. We had made short films, Zach had acted in a couple of features. But I think we were definitely thinking, ‘What can we make that's feature length?’ And we had a piece of land in Joshua Tree and an Airstream trailer - we thought - and then eventually, we had to find those things again. It kind of started, like, ‘What do we have access to? What can we make what we have around this idea?’ We're both from Austin. And I think we both have noticed that there's a mentality in Austin, a filmmaking mentality of just do it. Just make it with what you have. And we both have that outlook and that sensibility. So, I think we're both ready to step up and make something feature length.

Zach: Yeah, but I agree that I think you're touching on something important, Devin, that we both embraced this sort of indie spirit of let's make what we can with what we have, that I think we both sort of got a nice taste of while we were in Austin in the indie scene there. There was no single major entity or production company that funded this project. There was no green light, no one giving us permission or asking us to do this. It's fully 100% community funded and supported and driven purely by passion and gumption. [laughs] Which, I think it's cool. And also, with the cast and crew, there's no single star or auteur that we're all leaning on for recognition. It's literally a film created by a village, many of which are actually people from Austin anyway, so it was kind of cool to have each step in and have MVP moments to execute.

Sadie: I keep thinking of Richard Linklater, and the spirit he brings to making his movies, bare-bones, with his friends, and more than likely, it’ll be the best movie you’ve ever seen.

Zach: Exactly the vibe. In fact, this is a very dorky behind-the-scenes comment, but Rex's last name is O'Bannion after Ben Affleck's character in Dazed and Confused and Dexter's last name is Wiggins after Wiley Wiggins in Dazed and Confused and we just like shoehorned it in that we would say our last names at some point [laughs] for no other reason than to give a wink to our hero.

Sadie: In terms of directing and with your acting background, Zach, and having worked on some indie features prior to this one, how much were you able to take from those experiences and put that into this having been through it before on the other side?

Zach: Yeah, here's a good opportunity to give a huge shout-out to Brian Poyser, who's an Austin filmmaker, that those are the two kind of biggest projects that I got to act in and work behind the camera on a little bit. When I was much younger, I was like 19 and 21 for those two projects. And the first one was much more like a crew of eight people, one location, three main characters. And we slept in the house that we filmed in. It was literally film camp. And then the next one was like his much bigger budget version of that same mentality. He also comes from a theatre background too, as do I, and I know Devin and I, we do a lot of improv together when we're working and there's something about that theater approach to things where the cast and the crew are a family throughout that project. It's not just another gig. You're all in it together and I think that also was brought to Foil.

This was a much more brutal shoot; the desert was brutal; it was so cold it snowed on us; the wind; the lawlessness out there; people shooting at stuff; RVs driving through our set; someone stole a generator at one point - absolute insanity. It still felt like the most brutal version of film camp. A weird little family just trying to survive out there. [laughs] So, in terms of what I brought to it from past experiences, it's that Poyser mentality.

Sadie: When it came to casting Tom and Rambo. These characters are so great in terms of what information they share, but also use that information as misdirection, which is really fun to see how that all plays out at the end of the film. So, from writing these characters on the page to casting these actors – what was that process like?

Zach: Totally. So casting, we did not have the budget for a casting director. It just wasn't in the cards for us. And so really, nearly every single person that we've cast in the movie are people that were in the prior features that I acted in at some point. It just somehow all fell into place throughout those years between these projects that even though those were two Austin films, a bunch of those people ended up out here in LA. So, Chris Doubek was in that first movie Lovers of Hate. He's the lead character and such a weirdo and he and I have just been like kind of weird buds ever since. Brian McGuire who plays Rambo was in the second movie, which is called Love & Air Sex. We played weird stoner roommates. It was almost like a Doc and Marty McFly thing, he's so weirdly older than me - but we were fast friends on that.

Everyone in the movie really. Ashley Spillers the bartender Gina, she's also in the Love & Air Sex movie. Ari Stidham, the manager at Klingon video store, I met him sophomore year of college, he's been in literally every film I've made since then. He's talked his way into the cast of every single one. They're all just from this is like sort of a Wizard of Oz… 'And you were there, and you were there.' [laughs] history of films that that I've been a part of.

And I think once again, the pandemic really lent itself to the luck factor, because that was my rolodex for each film role of who I think would be good, was a list of like one person. And it just so happened that they were all available. Doubek was a little bit more of a last second, because he's shooting Winning Time. While we were writing it, I kept kind of pitching to Devin, like this guy would be really good in this role. And it gave us an opportunity to start writing these characters with these people in mind, because they expressed interest when we were still writing it.

Devin: And also, Zach's instincts for casting were great. It was also really important that he had previous relationships with these actors, because there was a necessary, I think, a level of trust that needed to be there from the beginning for them to commit to going out to the desert for two-plus weeks with us and just jumping in. I think that would be sort of a more difficult commitment for somebody that didn't already have that trust with Zach.

And then, when we're out there shooting, every actor is different and has different needs and different styles and approaches. And that's when I think Zach and I both had to kind of team up on trying to figure out how to best manage our actors needs and approaches. But from the beginning, and the casting, Zach's instincts were right on. I think at one point, I actually wanted Chris to play Rambo and Brian to play Tom, which would have been a mistake. Credit to Zach for good instincts.

Zach: What I kept saying to Devin about why they're gonna work the way they are cast is it's Pinky and the Brain.

Devin: Yeah, exactly. And I didn't know these guys until we got to rehearsals, and then we met and we realized it was gonna be good. It was just kind of trusting Zach on the casting and it turned out that he nailed it. We found the right people.

Sadie: Without any spoilers, but the foil is this MacGuffin, and I’m really curious how you kept this film tonally consistent – making sure you don’t go over the top or hold back in all its weirdness of the sci-fi genre?

Zach: Well, I'll say our writing process is very much a process of openness and trust with one another. I think this is in part, again, due to the pandemic. But I think it's also how we like to work that at no point were we writing in the same room over each other's shoulders watching each other write a scene, it was much more, ‘you take a huge stab at a huge chunk, and just send it to me when you're ready.’ And giving the freedom to surprise with a punch line or a concept or a whole other scene we didn't even talk about.

I mean, let me tell you, there were a lot of different versions of this story before we landed on this version. There was a time loop version where Rambo and Tom are older versions of us, there was kind of countless long rabbit holes that we would go down and like lose their minds, and then realize, you know, honestly, Devin's a lot better than me just sort of saying, ‘This is a dead end.’ [laughs] ‘Let's turn around and go back to this part that we know works and try going right instead of left this time.’

Devin: I think Zach and I are good together, because I think, I tend to err on the side of undercooking an idea. And Zach will push it and develop it past the point that maybe it should be. But in that process, we discover new things and ways to expand. So, it's kind of a push-pull that we have that I think works really well for finding the right happy medium, I guess.

And in terms of the writing, for me, I don't wanna speak for you, Zach, but I don't really consider myself a writer with a capital “W” that's not really my focus, generally. So, I don't think either of us had really had an ego about like, well, 'If we're not choosing my version, I'm going to be pissed.' We really just wanted to find the best path. And like Zach said, we would map out, we would go both write our versions of it and sort of look at it together. And then from there, take the parts that we liked, and eventually, we would have a version of it that we liked that was a composite of our two separate versions.

Sadie: I'm curious with your guys' comedy background, especially with the improv side, how much was that helping fuel your process from writing it, passing it back and forth, to then being on set and being these characters and having that banter back and forth?

Zach: Totally helped. I think that the idea of us writing separately and piecing it together worked much more on a structural level. But then when it came time to really putting the final pass on our dialogue, especially in the bar, and in the Bronco, we would just meet up and hit record on our phones and just do the beats, how we felt best doing it, and then finding funny things that make us laugh. And putting that on the page.

And then again, once we're on set too it's like, sometimes that bit doesn't feel as funny as it did when we first said it. Half the time, we have to trust that it is funny, we've just heard it a million times, and half the time you have to trust a new approach to it. Which I think that did help a lot. I think it helps a lot that Dev and I met in an acting context first.

Sadie: Any advice for first-time filmmakers, making a movie with this indie spirit? Something you learned during the process of making this film?

Zach: Here's one big one, we were all geared up to shoot the whole movie in September of 2021. And about a fortnight before then, us and the key crew kind of looked at each other and just realized we were not ready. We weren't ready yet. Our budget was so shoestring that we only had enough money to shoot exactly how many days we needed. There was no room to figure it out on the day. Which I think it's something that you can do with smaller-scoped ideas. And so we shot Act One in September and then pushed Act's Two and Three, like five months; and spent those five months, not just storyboarding, but going up to the location, renting the camera we were going to use the lights, we were going to use photo boarding the whole thing with stand-ins, trying to make sure that we had on a technical level as much of our druthers about us as possible before getting to set. And then any padding time that we need from there can be creative padding, and not like 'How the hell do we even do this?' [laughs]

So that to me felt like one of our best decisions. It also gave us a chance to watch Act One - Devin is a wizard and cut everything together that we shot. And we rewrote Act One, that bar scene is not in what we originally went out to shoot, that bar scene was added later. And we shot that five months later. And I think it really helped streamline and saves Act One for us.

Devin: Yeah, there actually were a couple of deleted scenes, which was amazing. Considering how thin our margins were, how tight our schedule was. My advice would be to make the movie you can make with the resources that you have. Identify what you have, and who you have, and let that inform your creativity. So, you got an Airstream trailer and a piece of land in the desert? What can we make there? What can we write around that? Maybe start there with setting. Sometimes when you define parameters that can actually enhance creativity. Like you've put your finger down, ‘OK, we're going to start with this, this is something we've committed to now, we know what box we're playing in.’ And we know maybe what some of the limitations are. I think that can actually allow more creativity to come out and ideas to come along.

Zach: I realized I didn't wrap it up into an official statement, which is like, you don't have to rush in. Time is on your side. Don't push your chips in, unless you know the hand is what you want.

Devin: Thanks, Mick Jagger.

Zach: [laughs] That's I think, the biggest…and it was scary in the moment, you know, three weeks out, there's a lot of stuff already in place that we did have to pull out on some locations. And we did lose a little bit of money to do that. But ultimately, it saved us a lot of money, I think in what would have been who knows how many reshoots or just days of just scrambling around and the amount of stress and --

Devin: Right. And that was the lesson for me. It was a lesson in patience for me, because I was admittedly kind of frustrated, really, when we pushed our schedule. But looking back, it was such a good decision. And if we had shot at the previous location, those months before, it would have been a disaster. And there's so many things like if we had gone left instead of right, we wouldn't have finished the movie. Or it wouldn't have turned out the way that we wanted. So, it's kind of like balancing the spirit of, 'Yeah, let's just go do it. Let's make it come on. Let's go, go, go, go!' We need to have everything planned and prepared and make sure that this is a wise approach, especially at the point when we had raised money that was pledged from our friends and families like, at that point, it becomes a greater responsibility to do it right. That was a learning process for me, a lesson in patience.

Sadie: What did you shoot on?

Zach: It was the Sony-FX6, which I had not worked with before. Our DP Jordan [Black], I think had worked with it - he's mostly a music video DP. And his biggest thing was how light-sensitive it is. And with all those night shoots, we could get away with using not only just two tube lights, but two tube lights powered at .5% because it's so sensitive that any higher would overexpose us - it's like seeing stars in the sky, and whatnot. That camera was pretty cool. I'm not very tech-savvy. I don't speak camera very well, but highly recommend using it if you have night stuff and no money for lights. [laughs]

Sadie: And the wizardry of just using those blue LED strips.

Zach: Totally, that saved us. And that's kind of the last thing I wanted to touch on was that I think every filmmaker is different, but one thing that I really believe in is trust the experts. I don't consider myself an auteur. And if anything, when I hire a key crew member or key cast member, I would prefer them to bring to me their approach to something before I start inundating them with my philosophy of how it should be. And the amount of times that produced an idea or an approach that wasn't even on the table for us and ended up being what we ended up doing, is countless. And I also just think people work best when they feel the most supported. And so, I think was huge for us - the amount of times we let our DP Jordan, our production designer, Adele [Maschi], just run with an idea and make it into something that wasn't even what was on the page. And it's way better.

Devin: And it’s a great quality for Zach as a director and just a leader in general, he finds the right people and he lets them cook. A lot of the personnel decisions were ones that we kind of made together and it was just sort of like a gut feeling like how do we feel about this person? A lot of people are talented, but how do we feel that we can work with them? But overwhelmingly, Zach found the right people, and he trusted them to deliver, and they did. Giving people the space to shine, and like Zach said, letting them feel like they are trusted creatively and are contributing in the way that they know they can - that's the way we want it to be.

Foil will have it's World Premiere at the 26th Annual Dances with Films, Friday, June 30, 2023, at 11:45 pm PST as part of the Midnight Series screening.